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PayPal Says: BDSM is Rape

Posted by Fallen_Fragments on Tue 21 Feb 2012 to the BDSM Activism web board

Hi guys,

I'm an author on a closed-membership erotica forum, and over the past couple of weeks there have been a number of changes made to remove all pseudo-incest titles from a couple of erotica e-bookstores (All Romance eBooks and Bookstrand) based in the USA. Pseudo-incest fiction (sex within step-families rather than between blood relations), while not my personal kink, is all legal and between consenting adults of 18 or over.

Apparently, the problem is that the sites pay royalties and let customers buy books via PayPal, and PayPal is now under pressure from the credit card companies to shut down the accounts of businesses selling material they deem questionable - in this case, books about rape portrayed in a titillating way (including rape fantasies) and pseudo-incest.

This is written by Selena Kitt, CEO of Excessica Publishing (which publishes a lot of BDSM/pseudo-incest erotic fiction). It's taken from this blog article: http://theselfpublishingrevolution.blogspot.com/...

The fact is, and we all know it--sex and porn make the Internet go-round. It's a huge industry, even if there is a vocal minority who doesn't like it. People like their porn, and they want access to it. So why would Paypal refuse to sell something that wasn't even illegal in any state in the U.S.?

I got my chance to ask that question, because a few days after the BookStrand debacle, Excessica received a phone call from Paypal. THE phone call. And then came the follow-up letter:

After a recent review of your account activity, it has been determined that you are in violation of PayPal's Acceptable Use Policy... In order to comply with our Acceptable Use Policy and avoid the limitation of your account, you will need to:

- Remove those items from http://www.excessica.com that violate PayPal's Acceptable Use Policy. Example/s: all ebooks containing themes of rape and incest.

Under the Acceptable Use Policy, PayPal may not be used to send or receive payments for certain sexually oriented materials or services or for items that could be considered obscene.

When I asked if "pseudo-incest" was included (since that was mostly all we had on the site) the representative confirmed that yes, that would have to be removed. "What about BDSM?" I asked--a category full of dubious consent. "That would have to be removed as well."

That's right--they weren't just targeting illegal acts between non-consenting adults. Now they were targeting legal sex between consenting adults.

When I asked her why they were doing this, I received no answer except, "We've always had this policy." Perhaps, but it seems that they weren't previously enforcing it very seriously. Why now?

The only answer I received from Paypal was silence.

There are a lot of categories in the erotic fiction market that I personally don't get. Pseudo-incest has cropped up because actual incest is illegal and book companies don't publish it, and pseudo-incest (sex with step-parents/siblings when the participants are over 18) gets around the terms of service on websites that say 'no incest' (just as werewolves having sex with humans while in their wolf form can be seen to get around the bestiality rules and rape fantasies can get around the 'no rape' rules).

I wouldn't want to write or read it myself, but it's all technically legal, and validly so, because some people do want to read about rape fantasies without actually wanting to rape or be raped.

It seems that PayPal is caving to pressure from the credit card companies (Visa and MasterCard, apparently) and getting whole corporate accounts at All Romance eBooks and Bookstrand shut down for a breach of PayPal's terms of service - they don't understand that reading about extreme subjects does not nurture tendencies to abuse or hurt people. But if, as this article suggests, BDSM fiction/dubious consent fiction is next to be censored, then I'm worried - not just as an author who writes kinky stories, but as a consumer with inclinations towards kink. If credit card companies and PayPal decide they don't like BDSM and consider it rape, then online businesses might suffer, because they won't be able to use PayPal or Visa/MasterCard to accept payments for visual porn, erotic fiction, even bondage supplies.

I don't know if these are just alarmist whispers spread by a few disgruntled parties, but I wanted to get the word out in case this does develop. The internet is all starting to look a little bit too censored for my liking (though if you follow the link to the article about Amazon book banning, I TOTALLY agree that the book in question should have been removed).

There's a petition here, if anyone is interested in signing it: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/7/stop-internet-c...

"Love As Thou Wilt"

Reply by emark on Tue 21 Feb 2012

A fundamental problem is that, as we move towards a cashless society, the means of payment is being placed into the hands of private 3rd parties. Worth remembering next time you hear calls to get rid of cheques...

Can they not take credit/debit cards directly? I know you say that they were under pressure from credit card companies (did they say that?), but from the stories I hear, Paypal seem to be annoying in all sorts of ways. Plus with credit cards, you're not relying in one single entity. Even more so with debit cards (and I'd be curious to know if any banks pull these kinds of tricks - with a debit card, it's my money, and I'd be furious with them if they start blocking access to my account).

And yes, I fully agree it's a concern if BDSM is deemed as something that people shouldn't be allowed to buy. There's all sorts of depictions of rape, incest, not to mention bestiality, necrophilia and pedophilia in all kinds of published physical books. I doubt these would be blocked by a credit card, if you bought them from somewhere like Amazon.

Sign the Consenting Adult Action Network's statement

Reply by Rhoobarb on Tue 21 Feb 2012

Fallen_Fragments wrote:
PayPal Says: BDSM is Rape

Under the Acceptable Use Policy, PayPal may not be used to send or receive payments for certain sexually oriented materials or services or for items that could be considered obscene.

When I asked if "pseudo-incest" was included (since that was mostly all we had on the site) the representative confirmed that yes, that would have to be removed. "What about BDSM?" I asked--a category full of dubious consent. "That would have to be removed as well."

I don't see where in this conversation that Paypal say "BDSM is rape" - which is what your title claims.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast.

Reply by rehtael_ni_dal on Tue 21 Feb 2012

Rhoobarb wrote:
Fallen_Fragments wrote:
PayPal Says: BDSM is Rape

Under the Acceptable Use Policy, PayPal may not be used to send or receive payments for certain sexually oriented materials or services or for items that could be considered obscene.

When I asked if "pbseudo-incest" was included (since that was mostly all we had on the site) the representative confirmed that yes, that would have to be removed. "What about BDSM?" I asked--a category full of dubious consent. "That would have to be removed as well."

I don't see where in this conversation that Paypal say "BDSM is rape" - which is what your title claims.

I can SEE it quite clearly Rhooburp ;)

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

Voltaire (François-Marie Arouet (21 November 1694 – 30 May 1778)

Reply by emark on Wed 22 Feb 2012

Also to note:

Under the Acceptable Use Policy, PayPal may not be used to send or receive payments for certain sexually oriented materials or services or for items that could be considered obscene.
In the UK, given the recent OPA case, even video depictions don't seem like they would be considered "obscene" anymore - let alone written fiction. The US may have different standards, but I find it hard to believe that they are so backwards.

Paypal seem stuck in the days of "Is it a book you would wish your wife or servants to read?"

Sign the Consenting Adult Action Network's statement

Reply by paulmcuk on Wed 22 Feb 2012

emark wrote:
A fundamental problem is that, as we move towards a cashless society, the means of payment is being placed into the hands of private 3rd parties. Worth remembering next time you hear calls to get rid of cheques...

And those third parties can be subject to political pressure. I recall when the Wikileaks thing broke how the credit card companies started blocking donataions made to Julian Assange - a move (IMO) resulting from pressure from the US government.

Virtually all our transations are in the hands of three private companies, all based in the US and all potentially influenced by US political and social trends.

Sorry, for going slightly OT.

Reply by roblxxx on Wed 22 Feb 2012

This has got to cover a whole load of Historical fiction writers then such as Wilbur Smiths books on South Africa at the turn on the 19th Century for instance. Lots of Rape, Whippings, incest (known and unknown) not to mention other mainstream authors whom I'm sure the cognoscenti on these boards will be abe to name.

Do crime authors who use rape as one of the crimes also get covered by this? Does it cover novels about Southern Rednecks?

I think the word Hypocrasy just about covers it.

I'm a bad, bad boy, and I'm going to steal your love.

b-b-b-b-bad to the bone! I make a rich woman beg, and a poor woman steal, An old woman blush, and a young girl squeal!

Reply by RanDesu on Wed 22 Feb 2012

emark wrote:

Can they not take credit/debit cards directly?

Hi,

It's a technical situation, no less than with the issue of a cheque.

The acquiring bank - that to which the customer belongs, still uses the mechanisms supplied by Visa/Mastercard. It is Visa and Mastercard who are enforcing censorship by not accepting the business or honouring the transactions of those wishing to purchase items of which they corporately disapprove.

From what I understand, PayPal is enforcing a policy which it has had for a considerable time, because of pressure from Visa/Mastercard.

That is what happens in business.

There is great hypocrisy in the world of finance and that of business, as we know.

Unfortunately, it will take many years before a truly ethical solution can be found, to replace that which we have to transact money at the moment. I say 'ethical', rather than 'moral', as the ethics of any company which facilitates the movement of other people's payments should surely be to be non-judgemental and honourable in service.

I know that they will be so well protected that nothing can be done legally, but morally, they have breached a contract in full knowledge of the fact. They have encouraged and facilitated the growth of many businesses, turning a blind eye to their own policies from the beginning, rather than saying "No thank you, we don't want your business" - from the outset.

It will not be too long before a large corporation realises that there is a huge erotica market, negotiates with Visa/Mastercard - to secure future payment mechanisms and possibly split revenue. They will then publish that which the market craves, at an overblown profit. Please don't tell me that I'm paranoid, it's just business.

Reply by Kitty_Fantastico on Wed 22 Feb 2012

PayPal for whatever reason, has been "cracking down" on all sorts of different businesses in recent years - so I'm not surprised about this. I also don't think this is an attack on BDSM...PayPal has been attacking everything from charities to private sellers. I have read some mind boggling cases of their insensitivity and power mad ways...probably not surprising as they're now such a big business and player in the market.

If anyone wants to see how NOT to do customer relations and social media visit the PayPal Facebook account...if they haven't shut it down yet that is.

Reply by Tanos on Wed 22 Feb 2012

Fallen_Fragments wrote:
PayPal Says: BDSM is Rape

I don't think misleading thread titles like this help at all :(

You could have put "PayPal bans BDSM Fiction" and been (a) right and (b) got the actual problem across.

:T:

www.tanos.org.uk

www.bridgewood.org.uk

The Warehouse: pony play etc, Sat 7 Apr 2012, Exodus, Birmingham

Reply by emark on Wed 22 Feb 2012

Where does the claim about pressure from Visa come from? I can't see any mention of it in the blog.

They do say why they don't accept debit/credit cards:

What I discovered was that most merchant-services (i.e. companies that allow you to use Visa and MasterCard on their site) which allow adult products charge a $5000 up-front fee to use their service. Then, they take exorbitant percentages from each transaction. Some 5%, some 14%, some as high as 25%.

Which is worrying. I don't know how they define "adult" though - I mean, what about an independent corner shop that also sells porn mags and condoms?

Sign the Consenting Adult Action Network's statement

Reply by TheLondoner on Wed 22 Feb 2012

roblxxx wrote:

I think the word Hypocrasy just about covers it.

And the word Hypocrisy ... that covers it too :)

PayPal is a crock anyway, in my experience, and I've ceased to use it - if an online retailer won't accept direct credit card payments then I'm not interested in what they have to offer, even if it's gold plated with chockie sprinkles on top, and comes with a free blow job. As a former small-scale, now-and-again seller on eBay, I found the fees outrageously high for what they were offering, especially as you were effectively being charged twice (or 3 times if you count eBay's charges) and as a buyer I had cause to find out that the much-vaunted "protection" was, frankly, bullshit. Thankfully it was only a fairly small value item, but I was somewhat miffed that they made it so very difficult to obtain a refund. In the end I considered how much of my time I'd spend sorting the situation, what that was worth to me, and how little I'd get back even if I did jump through all the hoops, and realised it wasn't worth bothering with.

It's worth remembering that PayPal is just an extension of the eBay empire - without eBay's insistence on its use in most cases and their endless plugging of it, as well as their denial (in the early days) of payment solutions that weren't PayPal, it wouldn't have even got off the ground as it's such a rip-off of a system.

Executive summary: Fuck PayPal; fuck it in its piggy little eyes :)

Reply by Slumbering on Wed 22 Feb 2012

I buy all sorts of pervertables via Paypal and have not had a problem.

Reply by Mr_Loc on Thu 23 Feb 2012

Having been 'caught' by Paypal myself and now find my Paypal account locked for 6 months with all my funds in it, I know how annoying this is.

I help run the FemSub Social Club and at our last event we decided to use Paypal to take payments as it is simple and convenient for most people to use.

You might say we were naive using Paypal for a BDSM event but we run a social event, yes there is play but its not something we are offering, we offer a place for people to meet and have fun. We are not selling any sexual products or services and so thought it would be ok.

For Paypal it wasn't, they locked my Paypal account with no notice (strangely they did it when we had sold all our tickets, I wonder why they didn't do it before we had any money in there ;)) there reason for freezing the account being our event had broken their terms and conditions as it was of an 'Adult, Sexual or Obscene nature'. The best part was the last line of their email:

This limitation cannot be challenged.

So a Paypal account I had been using for years with no problems was closed with no warning and no chance of explaining the situation.

I contacted Paypal to ask what exactly was wrong with our event, it was a place for people with certain sexual preferences to meet and socialise. Their response was that we mentioned people might get up to sexual acts. I explained that in every nightclub in the UK on a weekend someone would be getting up to some sexual acts so would you ban them, no was their reply.

I asked if they would ban a Lesbian or Gay private event as they are based on sexual preference and could possibly involve sexual acts (please don't flame me for generalisation, I was trying to make a point to Paypal). Their response was they wouldn't ban that type of event.

So I asked again what was wrong with our event, their response:

It's a fetish event and therefore sexual.

and that was that, nothing more I could say or do. Their word is final and as they said the limitation cannot be challenged.

This is of course wrong and is terrible but it's sadly not against the law. They are a company who are deciding to limit their services, they have that choice. They can define what 'Adult, Sexual or Obscene' is and they can move the goal posts as many times as they like, they are a private business. As long as their actions are not against a group that is protected under discrimination law they can do whatever they want.

BTW The limitation was brought about by their Branding Department, so maybe we had just got too big and people were starting to think Paypal sponsored us ;)

FemSub Social Club May Event (Sunday 13th May). For more information please join our mailing list.

Reply by RanDesu on Thu 23 Feb 2012

So... I think that I'll start writing erotica.

It seems like the only revolutionary thing to do.

That, and figuring out a new way to get paid, if people want to buy it.

Maybe... I could open a bank account and ask them to pay me directly. That would involve two-way trust. It might work. I'd need a web site, on a server that doesn't have 'issues' and...

I said this out loud, didn't I?

Ooops.

Reply by emark on Thu 23 Feb 2012

Mr_Loc wrote:
my Paypal account locked for 6 months with all my funds in it, I know how annoying this is.

...

This is of course wrong and is terrible but it's sadly not against the law. They are a company who are deciding to limit their services, they have that choice.

Surely theft is against the law? The serious issue is not them limiting their service, it's keeping the money paid in by people that was intended to you? (I mean, even if they insisted on refunding the money, it's certainly not theirs, no matter what their "terms" say.)

Or do I misunderstand you?

Sign the Consenting Adult Action Network's statement

Reply by boundcaptive on Thu 23 Feb 2012

TheLondoner wrote:
roblxxx wrote:

I think the word Hypocrasy just about covers it.

And the word Hypocrisy ... that covers it too :)

PayPal is a crock anyway, in my experience, and I've ceased to use it - if an online retailer won't accept direct credit card payments then I'm not interested in what they have to offer, even if it's gold plated with chockie sprinkles on top, and comes with a free blow job. As a former small-scale, now-and-again seller on eBay, I found the fees outrageously high for what they were offering, especially as you were effectively being charged twice (or 3 times if you count eBay's charges) and as a buyer I had cause to find out that the much-vaunted "protection" was, frankly, bullshit. Thankfully it was only a fairly small value item, but I was somewhat miffed that they made it so very difficult to obtain a refund. In the end I considered how much of my time I'd spend sorting the situation, what that was worth to me, and how little I'd get back even if I did jump through all the hoops, and realised it wasn't worth bothering with.

It's worth remembering that PayPal is just an extension of the eBay empire - without eBay's insistence on its use in most cases and their endless plugging of it, as well as their denial (in the early days) of payment solutions that weren't PayPal, it wouldn't have even got off the ground as it's such a rip-off of a system.

Executive summary: Fuck PayPal; fuck it in its piggy little eyes :)

Got it in a nutshell there. I especially like the reference to piggy little eyes...

Reply by Mr_Loc on Thu 23 Feb 2012

emark wrote:
Mr_Loc wrote:
my Paypal account locked for 6 months with all my funds in it, I know how annoying this is.

...

This is of course wrong and is terrible but it's sadly not against the law. They are a company who are deciding to limit their services, they have that choice.

Surely theft is against the law? The serious issue is not them limiting their service, it's keeping the money paid in by people that was intended to you? (I mean, even if they insisted on refunding the money, it's certainly not theirs, no matter what their "terms" say.)

Or do I misunderstand you?

Per Paypal they are keeping the money for 6 months to ensure there are sufficient funds is case of any customer complaints. They see it that if I had access to the money I would withdraw it all, close my bank accounts and cancel my credit cards and they would have no way to get the money back.

Again it is in their Terms & Conditions which you have to agree to when you sign up.

FemSub Social Club May Event (Sunday 13th May). For more information please join our mailing list.

Reply by emark on Thu 23 Feb 2012

If their terms of services say they can keep other people's money for 6 months, all the more reason I agree not to use them, I guess.

Though terms don't make the law. (And do third parties agree to these terms? If I intend money to be given to someone, I don't expect that to be held by Paypal or anyone else. This is one of the key points of those old fashioned cheques...)

Sign the Consenting Adult Action Network's statement

Reply by Mr_Loc on Thu 23 Feb 2012

emark wrote:
If their terms of services say they can keep other people's money for 6 months, all the more reason I agree not to use them, I guess.

Though terms don't make the law. (And do third parties agree to these terms? If I intend money to be given to someone, I don't expect that to be held by Paypal or anyone else. This is one of the key points of those old fashioned cheques...)

With any credit card service, the provider can keep funds for a period while investigating a potential fraud or charge back, this isn't specific to Paypal. I admit that credit card companies will only keep back the transaction that is in question but don't think only Paypal does this kind of thing.

FemSub Social Club May Event (Sunday 13th May). For more information please join our mailing list.

Reply by Mr_Loc on Thu 23 Feb 2012

XyIabion wrote:
Panic, panic. This is typical paranoia folks. Breath a bit - all is well.

Seller on PayPal ensures that their account is a personal one, not a business one, hence no declaration required of that business to PayPal, regardless of it being retail, event or whatever. If the business expects big turnover, then it'll find PayPal restrictions on the total sum of transactions within a personal account over a given period, hence create more than one personal account, transfering between personal accounts if necessary before final withdrawal.

  • 1) For my situation the account was a personal account NOT a business one but I still got caught.
  • 2) To have more than one seller account (Personal or Business) they have to be linked to separate bank accounts so to open more than one Paypal account you would need more than one bank account.

XyIabion wrote:
Buyer, when using PayPal (even if funding via PayPal using a credit or debit card or direct bank acccount funds), selects, as usual, the 'Send Money' tag. But then, instead of using the 'Purchase' tag (which includes the 'Goods', 'Services' and 'eBay Items' selections) they use the 'Personal' tag, which allows them to select 'Gift', 'Personal payment owed', 'Household expense' or 'Other'.
  • This presumes you are not going to use a direct link on the website you are selling from and that the person buying from you is happy to lie about the purpose of the transaction. We had over 100 guests to our last event and I doubt all of them would have been willing to lie about their Paypal purchase and most would have questioned why they should and the legitimacy of the event.

XyIabion wrote:
Personal to personal. Problem solved. Now I'm damned sure that the credit card companies won't and *can't* object to that one unless someone's naming themselves as Mistress Hitler or whatever...

True they cannot object to that, and that is useful IF you are doing a few large transactions. If you start to have multiple transactions to your account it will get them looking into those transactions and if you are unable to prove they are all private they will ask you to change your account type to Business.

Hiding the reasons for your transactions from Paypal will in theory keep Paypal from finding them (unless a disgruntled subbie informs on you) but that is not a workable solution for either legitimate business or ones with multiple transactions.

This isn't parnoria, this is a situation that has happened to me and many more people/companies dealing with Paypal and adult material or events. From memory Skin Two had had their Paypal account closed twice so it isn't just happening to the little ones.

I am breathing but all is not well.

FemSub Social Club May Event (Sunday 13th May). For more information please join our mailing list.

Reply by jackthecat on Thu 23 Feb 2012

XyIabion wrote:
Panic, panic. This is typical paranoia folks. Breath a bit - all is well.

Seller on PayPal ensures that their account is a personal one, not a business one, hence no declaration required of that business to PayPal, regardless of it being retail, event or whatever. If the business expects big turnover, then it'll find PayPal restrictions on the total sum of transactions within a personal account over a given period, hence create more than one personal account, transfering between personal accounts if necessary before final withdrawal.

Buyer, when using PayPal (even if funding via PayPal using a credit or debit card or direct bank acccount funds), selects, as usual, the 'Send Money' tag. But then, instead of using the 'Purchase' tag (which includes the 'Goods', 'Services' and 'eBay Items' selections) they use the 'Personal' tag, which allows them to select 'Gift', 'Personal payment owed', 'Household expense' or 'Other'.

Personal to personal. Problem solved. Now I'm damned sure that the credit card companies won't and *can't* object to that one unless someone's naming themselves as Mistress Hitler or whatever...

Works for me ;)

http://www.londonalternativemarket.com/

http://www.brumbazaar.co.uk/

Reply by Abraxus on Thu 23 Feb 2012

Mr_Loc wrote:
This presumes you are not going to use a direct link on the website you are selling from and that the person buying from you is happy to lie about the purpose of the transaction. We had over 100 guests to our last event and I doubt all of them would have been willing to lie about their Paypal purchase and most would have questioned why they should and the legitimacy of the event.

I don't know if this would work as a way to mitigate the problem, but what if you were to sell an entirely non adult related item, such as a T-shirt, baseball cap , pen or whatever, and possession of said item allows the buyer "free" admittance to a partcular event.

The non adult products can be sold on a linked, but separate site, and would be a straight clothing purchase as far as Paypal are concerned, and the buyer won't have to lie about the reason for the transaction. Buyers might also prefer a seemingly innocent purchase appearing on their statement.

Reply by TheLondoner on Thu 23 Feb 2012

Abraxus wrote:

I don't know if this would work as a way to mitigate the problem, but what if you were to sell an entirely non adult related item, such as a T-shirt, baseball cap , pen or whatever, and possession of said item allows the buyer "free" admittance to a partcular event.

Sneaky! :)

Reminds of that bloke, back in the days before they amended the Sunday Trading laws, who had an electrical retail outlet. He worked out that it was legal to sell fruit and veg, so he tried "with this £399 apple you get a free Fridge-Freezer, whereas with this £199 orange you get a free built-in oven" and so on ...

IIRC Trading Standards had him for breakfast but I thought it was a nice try.

Reply by Mr_Loc on Thu 23 Feb 2012

Abraxus wrote:
I don't know if this would work as a way to mitigate the problem, but what if you were to sell an entirely non adult related item, such as a T-shirt, baseball cap , pen or whatever, and possession of said item allows the buyer "free" admittance to a partcular event.

Thank you for taking the time to think of a way around it, it is appreciated.

Sadly one of the issues is how do you let the guest know the purchase of said item gives them free entry to the event without mentioning the event. When Paypal closed my account they actually sent me links to our event website showing the sections they didn't approve of, which shows they do look at the web sites the transactions relate to. We are a small event who don't advertise except for on IC so we are not something that is easy to find but they still went to the trouble to trawl our website.

The second problem is creating a new account. When the first got limited I thought I would create a new account, not to sell further tickets but to use with eBay for legitimate sales. This got closed down within 2 days, the reason:

Customers who are permanently limited for violating the Acceptable Use Policy are barred from future use of PayPal and its services and are not permitted to open new or additional PayPal accounts.

I realise I could get a friend to open one for me using their name and address but to be honest I just cannot be bothered, its a lot easier just to take cash on the door :)

FemSub Social Club May Event (Sunday 13th May). For more information please join our mailing list.

Reply by sirguym on Thu 23 Feb 2012

Mr_Loc wrote:
Thank you for taking the time to think of a way around it, it is appreciated.

Sadly one of the issues is how do you let the guest know the purchase of said item gives them free entry to the event without mentioning the event. When Paypal closed my account they actually sent me links to our event website showing the sections they didn't approve of, which shows they do look at the web sites the transactions relate to. We are a small event who don't advertise except for on IC so we are not something that is easy to find but they still went to the trouble to trawl our website.

The second problem is creating a new account. When the first got limited I thought I would create a new account, not to sell further tickets but to use with eBay for legitimate sales. This got closed down within 2 days, the reason:

Customers who are permanently limited for violating the Acceptable Use Policy are barred from future use of PayPal and its services and are not permitted to open new or additional PayPal accounts.

I realise I could get a friend to open one for me using their name and address but to be honest I just cannot be bothered, its a lot easier just to take cash on the door :)

I wouldn't want to encourage paranoia, but in your position I may be wondering if anyone 'had it in for you'.

In my experience big companies don't go trawling for this kind of thing, but only act on a complaint.

Usually from a malicious person on a petty personal grievance or imagined slight.

Tawsingham, where everyone can be whomsoever they want to be @Tawsingham_Feudal guy@tawse.com PO Box 135, Hereford, HR2 7WL, UK +44(0)1432 343100

Reply by Mr_Loc on Fri 24 Feb 2012

XyIabion wrote:
.. Hmm so maybe you should ask yourself if it was, in fact, PayPal that screwed your arse to the floor or someone else...

Now I am getting paranoid ;)

Thanks for the advice, I think if I was going to sell dubious items (as far as Paypal is concerned) I would do what you advise. For our event it was an interesting idea but cash is still king and so much easier (and no charges).

Its just a bit of a pisser that we have to do this, that we have to hide in the shadows and play these games.

FemSub Social Club May Event (Sunday 13th May). For more information please join our mailing list.

Reply by Slumbering on Thu 15 Mar 2012

Update, Paypal Have Had A Change Of Mind:

http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012/03/14/litera...

Reply by MycroftUK on Thu 15 Mar 2012

Perplexion wrote:
Update, Paypal Have Had A Change Of Mind:

http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012/03/14/litera...

But will that help Mr_Loc, or anyone else attempting to organise BDSM or similar events?

Somehow I doubt it, especially since PayPal's "Change Of Mind" as described in https://www.thepaypalblog.com/2012/03/update-pay... refers only to books.

Mycroft

Carpe Noctem/Cave Noctem

Never knowingly understood

Reply by Slumbering on Thu 15 Mar 2012

MycroftUK wrote:

PayPal's "Change Of Mind" as described in https://www.thepaypalblog.com/2012/03/update-pay... refers only to books.

As did the original post.

Reply by Morgan_Sinjen on Thu 15 Mar 2012

One should be slightly more concerned that some UK banks are now refusing to transfer funds to PayPal because of security issues.

I recently tried to transfer money to someone and Nat West would not allow it.

Reply by MrTom on Sun 18 Mar 2012

Morgan_Sinjen wrote:
One should be slightly more concerned that some UK banks are now refusing to transfer funds to PayPal because of security issues.

I recently tried to transfer money to someone and Nat West would not allow it.

I made a payment into PayPal from my NatWest debit card about a week ago, with no problem. It was a small amount though - less than £10.

Reply by ToakReon on Sun 18 Mar 2012

Fallen_Fragments wrote:
PayPal Says: BDSM is Rape

No ... actually PayPal are only concerned with what might be "commercially problematic". Anything that might give rise to bad publicity is, by definition, bad. Moral concerns and considerations are entirely irrelevant.

At some point I'll think of something to say here. In the meanwhile if any insanely cute subbie girls want to fling themselves at my feet, please feel free ... *GRIN*

Reply by Trussedworthy on Fri 4 May 2012 (modified Mon 14 May 2012)

Mr_Loc wrote:
We are a small event who don't advertise except for on IC so we are not something that is easy to find but they still went to the trouble to trawl our website.

its a lot easier just to take cash on the door :)

I'm not sure of the charges but CCBill is used to take payment by some bondage websites.

Selling tickets to an event I don't think "Contravenes public morality" or would be "considered obscene" under Arizona law.

There are many quirky things US law prevents them taking payment for, "Radar and laser jammers, Cuban Cigars, Cars, Boats, Humans!" but I'd imagine party tickets may be allowable.

http://www.ccbill.com/policies.php

http://www.ccbill.com/cs/client/policies/ccbill/...

http://www.ccbill.com/cs/client/policies/ccbill/...