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UNFAIRNESS

Posted by Ms_Eve_White on Tue 28 Jun 2011 to Upstairs_downstairs

The concept of unfairness within a Mistress / Master and servant relationship is hugely important and quite desirable as far as I am concerned.

I am interested to know what others think / feel about this. How does a servant cope with those feeling;, are they positive and warming, do they give them a feeling of inner strength?

Or does the notion of being treated unfairly and suffering make them feel negative, agitated and resentful?

If responding, please do not cover the topic of non consensual unfairness and abuse. I am sure We all understand that already, and if you don't, and need clarification, please memo Me privately.

Reply by condemned on Tue 28 Jun 2011

An interesting question and i feel this is one subject real domestics,ones who actually work as opposed to play acting at it,struggle with from time to time.

The excellent slavegirl sabrina's blog and when he was working as a domestic,shoecupboardfiends blog, both touch and touched on this inner struggle when in service.

Long hours of freedom given up to toil for someone else for no financial reward.Sacrificing precious leisure time voluntarily.

I know there are some domestics who say their heart sings when they are working,nothing gives them greater pleasure.I take my hat off to them.For many although they volunteer to do it,it can be a sort of masochistic self imposed misery.

Domestic work can be dirty,tiring and tedious drudgery.Sure you are providing a service but nothing takes away the reality of doing it.So yes....at times when a hot sunny day and you are scrubbing and cleaning indoors the thought will on occasion flit through your mind.

''What am i doing???This is SO unfair!I should be out enjoying the sunshine,relaxing.....why me??''

Then the inner voice says.....''Because this is your place in life!You are a lowly skivvy nothing else and you serve this woman and have to obey her...so get on with it!''

Ahh the complexeties of being a lowly skivvy.

Reply by canequest on Tue 28 Jun 2011

condemned wrote:

Then the inner voice says.....''Because this is your place in life!You are a lowly skivvy nothing else and you serve this woman and have to obey her...so get on with it!''

Ahh the complexeties of being a lowly skivvy.

The concept of fairness applicable to the original question posed by Ms White relates i feel to the overall dynamic and depth of the D/s relationship. If unfairness is applied consistenly throughout the servitude by the Mistress / Master then this renders the relationship abusive and exploitive. Neither aspects are applicable to the positive concepts and philosophies of the Lifestyle.i would add that this approach is also counter productive as the submissive wishes to serve as an element of his / her nature and quickly realises that the Mistress / Master are not genuine.

There are those on here who are seemingly frequently seeking service orientated staff ( in theory ) but seem incapable of retaining them for any period of time. Now why should this be i wonder ?.

A subtle combination of fairness and unfairness however, induced as the prerogative of the Mistress / Master is vastly different and provides an equally subtle, but equally clear and thus unequivocal exemplification of the Authority over the submissive.

The term "lowly skivvy" however is one that belongs in the realms of fantasy, NOT, the Lifestyle as, regretably, it suggests those who may perceive themselves as such could also have low self-esteem and thus be vulnerable to mental abuse as a result. In my respectful opinion, Lifestyle slaves / submissives do not have low self-esteem in either the vanilla or Lifestyle contexts and certainly no Responsible Dominant would ever dream of using mental abuse as a feature of their training and usage of a slave. The status of Mistress / Master / slave is invariably defined from the onset therefore.

Reply by condemned on Tue 28 Jun 2011

canequest wrote:
The term "lowly skivvy" however is one that belongs in the realms of fantasy, NOT, the Lifestyle as, regretably, it suggests those who may perceive themselves as such could also have low self-esteem and thus be vulnerable to mental abuse as a result. In my respectful opinion, Lifestyle slaves / submissives do not have low self-esteem in either the vanilla or Lifestyle contexts and certainly no Responsible Dominant would ever dream of using mental abuse as a feature of their training and usage of a slave. The status of Mistress / Master / slave is invariably defined from the onset therefore.

I strongly disagree.Everyone is different in what pushes their buttons.Anyone who has met me will verify i am a well rounded and quite assertive guy.To be thought of and treated as a 'lowly skivvy' enhances the experiance for me.

Reply by Ms_Eve_White on Tue 28 Jun 2011

I think there is room within a M/s relationship for names / labels which might otherwise be considered offensive or humiliating. In the case of the s, being attracted to such degrading or belittling scenes does not necessarily indicate a lack of self esteem to Me. Infact, I have found the reverse to be true. It takes great strength to be able to endure such a dynamic, mentally as well as physically.

There is often a degree of fantasy even within a Lifestyle arrangement, although I really don't like using the word ' fantasy' as it is as meaningless as the word 'real'.

Reply by Ms_Eve_White on Tue 28 Jun 2011

canequest wrote:
condemned wrote:

A subtle combination of fairness and unfairness however, induced as the prerogative of the Mistress / Master is vastly different and provides an equally subtle, but equally clear and thus unequivocal exemplification of the Authority over the submissive.

Yes, I think it is the way the unfairness is used to reinforce the willing relinquishment of power and control that interests Me so much.

The way it makes the recipient of the unfairness feel - the mental challenge - that push and pull between desire and suffering is heavily accentuated. Or maybe the complete and total silent acceptance that only deep submission can bring about.

Reply by sillymaid on Tue 28 Jun 2011

From the outside there is most likely a perception of unfairness, but from within the relationship it is the natural order, the skivvy is seeking the recognition, praise, the attention of their employer, whist the employer is using their natural position to take advantage of the skivvies need. There will be times of angst from within the skivvy but the desire to please and receive praise will outweigh this inner pain. My other thought is... The seeking of punishment is an attention seeking mechanism and with the right positive attention punishment can be used as a training device to improve the service or the depth of servitude.

Reply by Petticoatmaid on Wed 29 Jun 2011 (modified Thu 30 Jun 2011)

Ms_Eve_White wrote:
canequest wrote:
condemned wrote:

A subtle combination of fairness and unfairness however, induced as the prerogative of the Mistress / Master is vastly different and provides an equally subtle, but equally clear and thus unequivocal exemplification of the Authority over the submissive.

Yes, I think it is the way the unfairness is used to reinforce the willing relinquishment of power and control that interests Me so much.

The way it makes the recipient of the unfairness feel - the mental challenge - that push and pull between desire and suffering is heavily accentuated. Or maybe the complete and total silent acceptance that only deep submission can bring about.

I find the unfair psychological relationship between the Mistress and her maid fascinating.

And how exquisite it must be for the maid to be acutely aware that the Mistress is enjoying using her power to tease, entrance, captivate and make full use of the maid.

It is natural that the relationship is unfair. The maid must at times be very aware of being treated unfairly and will have the bitter sweet emotions of humiliation and pleasure.

Reply by Ms_Eve_White on Fri 1 Jul 2011

mad_person wrote:
From the outside there is most likely a perception of unfairness, but from within the relationship it is the natural order, the skivvy is seeking the recognition, praise, the attention of their employer, whist the employer is using their natural position to take advantage of the skivvies need. There will be times of angst from within the skivvy but the desire to please and receive praise will outweigh this inner pain. My other thought is... The seeking of punishment is an attention seeking mechanism and with the right positive attention punishment can be used as a training device to improve the service or the depth of servitude.

I see a M /s relationship as being symbiotic, but with the added dynamic of it being weighted in favour of the Dominant.

I don't have much time for those servants who seek attention in the form of punishment. When performing a role, cp is to used to control and motivate; I would rather they do a job and do it well, and take serious cp within another context than purposely be inefficient.

Service submissives are there to 'do' the jobs so that I don't have to. Their reward is to do a job and know they have done it to the best of their ability and made a difference in My Life.

Reply by Ms_Eve_White on Fri 1 Jul 2011

Petticoatmaid wrote:
Ms_Eve_White wrote:
canequest wrote:
condemned wrote:

A subtle combination of fairness and unfairness however, induced as the prerogative of the Mistress / Master is vastly different and provides an equally subtle, but equally clear and thus unequivocal exemplification of the Authority over the submissive.

Yes, I think it is the way the unfairness is used to reinforce the willing relinquishment of power and control that interests Me so much.

The way it makes the recipient of the unfairness feel - the mental challenge - that push and pull between desire and suffering is heavily accentuated. Or maybe the complete and total silent acceptance that only deep submission can bring about.

I find the unfair psychological relationship between the Mistress and her maid fascinating.

And how exquisite it must be for the maid to be acutely aware that the Mistress is enjoying using her power to tease, entrance, captivate and make full use of the maid.

It is natural that the relationship is unfair. The maid must at times be very aware of being treated unfairly and will have the bitter sweet emotions of humiliation and pleasure.

Beautifully put, Patsy.

Reply by shoe_cupboard_fiend on Sat 2 Jul 2011

My experience or being a domestic, frustration, moody, small anger at the lack of normal banter or conversation. That often bothered me, but i learned to respect the position of me and Her. I felt at times almost servile to her every whim, if she would have said, now shine the shoes whilst she talked on the phone, I would have done it, no matter how degrading. This is for real, so the reason you shine her shoes is because she wants them shined, not because it turns you on. The woman who I worked for, thinking about it now, often made me feel very invisible except for when she wanted something done. Her nails were always perfect, and she always looked good when not in her gym kit!

I think doing the dirty, humiliating jobs, that she wouldnt dare do herself, often made me vexed, but that was my role, purpose and her excuse to relax and tell me that she wanted it done. I was the regular house boy! I knew that the first time I cleaned her toilet, I realised that she didnt feel in any way ashamed or a bit embarrassed. She justed coo'd with delight when she inspected the job, excellent she would say. In fact the reality sunk in, when she ushered me in once after bathing etc. She didnt care about that, no worries, just fucking clean up the bathroom she was most likely thinking. Simple, she just wanted it spotlessly clean (the bathroom) I made it super clean. I always made that super extra effort, just in case i would get a smile. She would just scratch her top lip, with that £20 all day pale pink lipstick, (yes £20 and it stays on all day, as i heard her say once whilst on the phone) hmmmmm. She would talk to me whilst facing the other way. Another point to take in, just think about somthing else I would say....

That my opinion did not matter in any way, shape or form. I strived so hard for acknowledgement. I never ever got anything back except dirt and more dirt. I would never show any disrespect simply because I would have been sacked. I felt she was unfair with the zero acknowledgement, but she can be. Another testing time!

I was treated, lets say as a gofer. I gave my all, felt often that 101% was just expected, without any worry for her..., I would never have given less...NEVER. Because she could make me clean her toilet, her floors, stand and wait whilst she did something else, talk to me like a joe. I strived to please, even when her voice was patronising and aloof.

I think if I had of worked for 10 years with that Woman, she would have had me doing everything! I learned a long time ago that when you serve, you just serve, unless you are dismissed?? I have learned the art of servile respect?

Yes Ma'am

Reply by Ms_Eve_White on Sat 2 Jul 2011

shoe_cupboard_fiend wrote:
My experience or being a domestic, frustration, moody, small anger at the lack of normal banter or conversation. That often bothered me, but i learned to respect the position of me and Her. I felt at times almost servile to her every whim, if she would have said, now shine the shoes whilst she talked on the phone, I would have done it, no matter how degrading. This is for real, so the reason you shine her shoes is because she wants them shined, not because it turns you on. The woman who I worked for, thinking about it now, often made me feel very invisible except for when she wanted something done. Her nails were always perfect, and she always looked good when not in her gym kit!

I think doing the dirty, humiliating jobs, that she wouldnt dare do herself, often made me vexed, but that was my role, purpose and her excuse to relax and tell me that she wanted it done. I was the regular house boy! I knew that the first time I cleaned her toilet, I realised that she didnt feel in any way ashamed or a bit embarrassed. She justed coo'd with delight when she inspected the job, excellent she would say. In fact the reality sunk in, when she ushered me in once after bathing etc. She didnt care about that, no worries, just fucking clean up the bathroom she was most likely thinking. Simple, she just wanted it spotlessly clean (the bathroom) I made it super clean. I always made that super extra effort, just in case i would get a smile. She would just scratch her top lip, with that £20 all day pale pink lipstick, (yes £20 and it stays on all day, as i heard her say once whilst on the phone) hmmmmm. She would talk to me whilst facing the other way. Another point to take in, just think about somthing else I would say....

That my opinion did not matter in any way, shape or form. I strived so hard for acknowledgement. I never ever got anything back except dirt and more dirt. I would never show any disrespect simply because I would have been sacked. I felt she was unfair with the zero acknowledgement, but she can be. Another testing time!

I was treated, lets say as a gofer. I gave my all, felt often that 101% was just expected, without any worry for her..., I would never have given less...NEVER. Because she could make me clean her toilet, her floors, stand and wait whilst she did something else, talk to me like a joe. I strived to please, even when her voice was patronising and aloof.

I think if I had of worked for 10 years with that Woman, she would have had me doing everything! I learned a long time ago that when you serve, you just serve, unless you are dismissed?? I have learned the art of servile respect?

The question is....would you serve so diligently and loyally without the cash reward! ? ;)

Reply by shoe_cupboard_fiend on Sat 2 Jul 2011

Yes I definately would serve as a domestic for "no cash for work" reward. It would be a very interesting dynamic. I know I could do just as good if not better, without the pay. :)

I think the not getting the financial reward, for doing a females dometsic chores, errands, tasks would make me brown nose just that bit harder.

Yes Ma'am

Reply by sensualworcs on Mon 4 Jul 2011

Ms_Eve_White wrote:
UNFAIRNESS

The concept of unfairness within a Mistress / Master and servant relationship is hugely important and quite desirable as far as I am concerned.

I am interested to know what others think / feel about this. How does a servant cope with those feeling;, are they positive and warming, do they give them a feeling of inner strength?

Or does the notion of being treated unfairly and suffering make them feel negative, agitated and resentful?

Thought provoking question, I don't think fairness/unfairness comes into it, in an FLR where both partners are committed to the relationship unfairness should not be an issue. From a personal perspective, it's more about commitment, knowing who you are and how you want to live. I think one of the main reasons we are subs is that we want to serve our chosen one whether it is for love, fun or work and being used by her is the ultimate expression of that dominant/submissive love. Humiliation is a different issue altogether, but being used by a loving partner is the key, it's her happiness that really matters, the satisfaction is in providing it.

“I hate it when people put the names of famous people onto cheesy quotes to make them sound wiser” Bob Marley

Reply by Ms_Eve_White on Mon 4 Jul 2011

sensualworcs wrote:
Ms_Eve_White wrote:
UNFAIRNESS

The concept of unfairness within a Mistress / Master and servant relationship is hugely important and quite desirable as far as I am concerned.

I am interested to know what others think / feel about this. How does a servant cope with those feeling;, are they positive and warming, do they give them a feeling of inner strength?

Or does the notion of being treated unfairly and suffering make them feel negative, agitated and resentful?

Thought provoking question, I don't think fairness/unfairness comes into it, in an FLR where both partners are committed to the relationship unfairness should not be an issue. From a personal perspective, it's more about commitment, knowing who you are and how you want to live. I think one of the main reasons we are subs is that we want to serve our chosen one whether it is for love, fun or work and being used by her is the ultimate expression of that dominant/submissive love. Humiliation is a different issue altogether, but being used by a loving partner is the key, it's her happiness that really matters, the satisfaction is in providing it.

Fair enough!

I appreciate that not everyone would get something out of this sort of dynamic.

Reply by sillymaid on Mon 4 Jul 2011

Or is this behaviour a variation on the Stockholm syndrome? Curious thought?

Reply by Deertan on Tue 5 Jul 2011

May I just say that I believe that unfairness is fundamental in the relationships described. One should not be expected to be appreciated or rewarded for hard work. It should be at the discretion of the one who is served. That way there is genuine delight when one is rewarded. The idea of someone being unfair to me and my efforts to work through the sorrow and serve with grace and optimism is a great life skill to learn. The journey would be great for the soul and would lead to sustained happiness. The confusion of being punished for no reason may also help the sub understand hierachy, and to work through the confusion so that there is genuine acceptance of their position is no bad thing; for me anyway.

Reply by BrianC on Wed 6 Jul 2011

I don't think the notion of unfairness is helpful here. There's an imbalance, a power gradient, inequality, there is M/s, there is D/s, but none of these things are intrinsically unfair. I can relish my position without ever thinking it unfair.

Reply by Ms_Eve_White on Wed 6 Jul 2011

Imbalance, inequality, unfairness. They all appeal to the sadistic side of My nature, so I don't mind which word is used.

Reply by Tom012 on Fri 8 Jul 2011 (modified Sat 9 Jul 2011)

I think "unfairness" or any other wording with the same connotations is a fantastic tool in d&s. Any situation where one person can choose to do something where as one person is forced to do something for me, defines unfairness. I can see that there is no better way to enforce dominance over somebody, or equally, to show submission to someone else, than by removing the option of choice and hence making the situation unfair.

Reply by Pinderella on Fri 7 Oct 2011 (modified Sat 8 Oct 2011)

That "unfairness", "inequality", or however else it might be put, is present in most D/s relationships in some degree, and can be an element which supports the status of each party.

Inequality is the point of it all, or one of the points, certainly. Exactly how that "unfairness" is expressed will matter, of course. Wether such expressions are gross or subtle, the balance of it all will meet the needs of both parties where they are compatible in spirit, for want of a better phrase.

The masochist in me relishes the knowledge that cruelties visited upon me give pleasure to the Sadists who inflict them. The principle extends to "inequalities", and to "unfairness" in general, but in the same way that we all have hard limits for play, particular inequalities or unfairnesses may be ultimately unpalatable and tend to drive me away, whereas other possibly crueller conditions might easily ensnare me in a web of delicious suffering. I suppose taste and compatibility are key. :)

Edited to improve spelling.

Reply by Ms_Eve_White on Sat 14 Jan 2012

Ms_Borgia wrote:
While I am aware offensive and humiliating labels are a kink and are a turn on for many submissives/slaves, I also think many submissives/slaves feel/know that bdsm and their desires aren't accepted in main stream society, it does not fit and I tend to think that that makes life hard and will impact on their self esteem.

I also think finding a partner in this lifestyle is harder, and takes longer, often requires a compromise as well, so that might also have an impact on self esteem.

I am talking about life not play though.

In play I think they would only endure such dynamics if they find it a turn on or derive some sort of pleasure from it.

Of course dominants can also have a low self esteem.

Ms_Eve_White wrote:

The thread was originally about the concept of unfairness within a Master / Mistress and servant situation. A very different set up to that of a Dominant/ submissive.

A servant may not even identify as being 'submissive'.

I don't think that a submissive / servant / masochist / Dominant with poor self esteem would last long in My establishment.

Mind you, saying that, everytime I pull something out of My Wardrobe and look down at My bulge refusing to be enclosed, I feel something distinctly like low self esteem! Then I just blame the cook and My self esteem is restored. ;)

Reply by condemned on Sat 14 Jan 2012

@Ms Borgia.The situation we are discussing here is one of Mistress and servant,which even in the vanilla world is unequal.One pays someone to do all the unpleasant chores they hate,because they can afford to do so,while the other does it because they need the money.

Often the money is poor,which is explotation and unfairness and is often paid by someone who could afford to pay more,but won't because the law says so long as they pay a minimum wage that is ok.I once watched a documentary on au pairs and some of the female employers were tougher than some Dommes i have served,lol!

You have to seperate it from a relationship so to speak,as in sexual,living together,sharing bills and all the normal stuff,except one is Dominant and one submissive.Although it IS a relationship,it is one of Mistress and servant and in my eyes,as the servant,it will always be unequal and should be by it's very nature.