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Posted by chartreuse on Sat 4 Jun 2011 (modified Sun 11 Nov 2012) to FemDom_forum

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Reply by femsup on Sat 4 Jun 2011

Greater logevity of the relationship might be a good spin off of this type of romance.Would worry though that the woman who usually puts so much into maintaining a relationship would have the onus put even further on her to keep it running smoothly.

Reply by GoddessBabyCakes on Sat 4 Jun 2011

chartreuse wrote:

Is it really possible to have that sort of relationship, one where the submissive willingly yields to his Mistress, in all things?

Yes, we live like this and have done for the best part of 5 years now. Simplicity is key in all things: I'm the boss. That's really the only rule. We have our little routines, things we like. But we don't go overboard on rules, regulations, protocol. It's too stiff, too formal, it doesn't suit our relationship. We ebb and flow like the tide, we're as changeable as the moon. But we are, in our core, a Dominant and her submissive. We're compatible on all levels, not just kinky or sexually. We just work together. We're an odd couple to the eyes of the world, but that matters not a jot. Everyone expects him to be with some pretty, slim, curvy blonde. Everyone expects me to be with some manly, tall, rugbyplaying academic. But we defeat the odds time and again.

I've traveled the world to eventually find this man. And I'd do it all again in a heartbeat. I know I'm incredibly lucky. He knows he's incredibly lucky.

chartreuse wrote:
Do you think it's likely to wear thin for the submissive, will he get fed-up with always having to concede, is it just "pie-in-the-sky", a fantasy, an ideal that will never become a reality (other than during play)?

No. If he genuinely, truly wants to serve and you both have that connection, it will feel like the most natural thing in the world.

It's just a matter of being compatible and knowing up front how things are going to be. Of course it will take work, of course there will be arguments, of course you'll have off days. But it should never feel forced.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act” - George Orwell

"In order to be irreplaceable, one must always be different" - Coco Chanel

Please check out @FemDom_Forum too!

Reply by GoddessBabyCakes on Sat 4 Jun 2011

Matter of time :-) I'd just given up on men and then we just happened to be in the same place at the same time.

I think he was mainly drawn to what I'd written about what I wanted. As a woman, and as a Dominant. Perhaps something like that helps. Will send a memo shortly

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act” - George Orwell

"In order to be irreplaceable, one must always be different" - Coco Chanel

Please check out @FemDom_Forum too!

Reply by Elysium on Sun 5 Jun 2011

chartreuse wrote:
A Female-led relationship...?

... what does it entail/mean to you?

I have my own handle on it - to me it means the woman makes all the decisions, she decides (with input but without argument) when, where, how, what, who and why BUT... it will only work if the pairing is compatible on all levels, not just sexually.

It doesn't exclude input/initiation/suggestions from the sub/slave, it just means that her choice is the final one.

Decisions won't always be immediate, some things will need to be discussed and considered, orders don't need to be barked out and punishments should be something rarely required (if the sub desires and consents to a FLR type of relationship).

Is it really possible to have that sort of relationship, one where the submissive willingly yields to his Mistress, in all things?

*OR... is it impossible to "live this dream" within a long-term, monogomous, committed relationship. Do you think it's likely to wear thin for the submissive, will he get fed-up with always having to concede, is it just "pie-in-the-sky", a fantasy, an ideal that will never become a reality (other than during play)?*

What sort of things do you believe are indicative of a Female-led relationship?

ETA ~ The sentence enclosed by *'s.

Is it possible? Yes.

Are your ideas indicative of a FLR? Yes

Are you being realistic? No

You seem to be labouring under some myths about submission, and some general myths about relationships.

Just because someone is submissive, doesn't mean they are going to give up all control rationally and easily. Even if they want to and say they will. If someone is submissive, they have the desire to give up control. Within a developing relationship.

I don't believe in love at first sight, or indeed submission at first sight. I also don't believe in 'the one'.

Expecting a guy to come along who's 100% compatible with your Dominance and you as a person is just foolish. Just as love, attachment and respect grow in a relationship, so too does submission. There are things you want him to submit too that he isn't going to like, no matter how compatible he is with you. To do this, your relationship has to be strong. You need respect, love and a realistic set of expectations on both sides.

To go from an independent self identified submissive, to one in a full blown FLR without the gradual build up and negotiated surrendering of control over different parts of your life is bound to create lots of unmanageable conflict. Which would likely see the end of a relationship.

Why?

http://www.enslavement.org.uk/lili/reactance

Reactance is why. Reactance happens in any form of power exchange. It cannot be avoided no matter how submissive someone is, or how Dominant someone is. It can only be managed.

Reactance is the reason you're finding it hard. The subs you encounter can't help it. It doesn't make them any less submissive, or you any less Dominant. It just is.

A successful FLR will for lack of a better term grow organically. As emotional attachment, a submissive's respect for the Dominant partners skills in managing their partners submission and the Dominants valuing of their partners submission grows. So to will the level of power exchange.

What is written in that article is quite true. In order to get past reactance, overwhelming (psychological) force is needed. The best form of that is for the emotional attachment and respect between Dominant and submissive to be incredibly strong. The stronger the relationship, the more valued it is by both parties. The more power is exchanged and the more reactance can be overcome.

To accept a state of powerlessness in a relationship is more than a rational process or choice. It is also an emotional process on the part of the submissive. One they might not be aware of or have the skills to deal with.

If you want to get to the point of a peaceful, long term and stable FLR. You have to learn to manage reactance and grow the relationship gradually. The more the submissive is bonded to you, the more the submissive trusts you and your ability to understand and manage the emotional challenges that arise through submission. The more respect they have for your skills and understanding as a Dominant. The more they are likely to get through periods of serious psychological reactance. To give you the power you desire.

It's a process. One that you would do well choosing wisely who to dedicate the patience, time and energy in exploring the journey.

Your level of expectations, your constant disappointment and your complaining hint at some serious flaws in belief around D/s relationships and ultimately speak to how much you value male submission. (It's not easy)

Perhaps it's time to challenge your simplistic myth style expectations and views. In order to help your D/s relationships become more successful. After all, the common denominator in all your relationships, is you.

Let's televise and broadcast the raping of kings.

Reply by Puddin_Von_Puss on Sun 5 Jun 2011

MissKimberley wrote:

No. If he genuinely, truly wants to serve and you both have that connection, it will feel like the most natural thing in the world.

It's just a matter of being compatible and knowing up front how things are going to be. Of course it will take work, of course there will be arguments, of course you'll have off days. But it should never feel forced.

Totally agree with this. This is where we are and what works for us. Yeah, there's been the odd glitch, but not in any way a power struggle. And it's the loveliest relationship we've ever been in.

It's the little things Dude, the little things.

Reply by Domme_seeker on Sun 5 Jun 2011

An FLR is a two way street, a male can't expect to be directed and bossed without giving something in return. i like to feel that i'd be the type of male that gives the Female that sense of pride in ownership, and feels thats its not a chore to be the boss but has someone worth bossing.. and makes the man better than he was, and will continue to improve him, and he gives himself to her as he knows he will be continually improved by her

Reply by Elysium on Mon 6 Jun 2011

chartreuse wrote:
ETA ~ Maybe the common denominator is men! ;)

Yeah, you should totally become a lesbian.

No need to get defensive. You're the one complaining.

When a submissive man can't find a partner, he's doing something wrong. He should stop moaning, he should get out more, adjust his expectations, work on his social and relationship skills. When a Dominant woman has trouble finding a suitable partner. It's obviously the entire sub male population that's at fault.

Sound logic there.

Let's televise and broadcast the raping of kings.

Reply by Elysium on Mon 6 Jun 2011

chartreuse wrote:
What's really interesting is that you perceive my post as "complaining".

Elysium wrote:
chartreuse wrote:
ETA ~ Maybe the common denominator is men! ;)

Yeah, you should totally become a lesbian.

No need to get defensive. You're the one complaining.

When a submissive man can't find a partner, he's doing something wrong. He should stop moaning, he should get out more, adjust his expectations, work on his social and relationship skills. When a Dominant woman has trouble finding a suitable partner. It's obviously the entire sub male population that's at fault.

Sound logic there.

Why else would you be asking if FLR are 'pi in the sky'?

Let's televise and broadcast the raping of kings.

Reply by MistressRouge on Mon 6 Jun 2011

My realationship is a FLR, we have been together for 7 years, getting wed in September. His only motivation is My happiness, and when I am happy he is. I make all the decisions, always have and we discussed this indepth at the beginning of our relationship.

He said he was quite happy to take the "backseat", and much prefers being the sidecar rider in life. I suppose he is the lucky one, to have such a focussed and structured life partner, and I him for being My rock, solace and love :)

My S&M Night http://clubrack.co.uk/ Saturday June the 4th - Rubber & Electrics Night.

My Members Site: http://mistressrougeuk.c4slive.com/

My Videos Clips: http://www.clips4sale.com/store/13392

Reply by LadyAliana on Mon 6 Jun 2011

My relationship is also FLR . He has been looking for this for many years. We met as vanilla's , he introduced me to the lifestyle and i quickly found it was what i was looking for. We are now married and we have an amazing ,loving relationship.

He will do anything to make me happy ,and he respects me that i make the right decisions for us both.

I wish you luck in your search.

Sticks and stones may break your bones, But whips and chains excite me.

Reply by tanken on Mon 6 Jun 2011

I think this could work for me if we weren't 'in each other's faces' all the time. I need a certain amount of solitude and time on my own to do things that I couldn't do with a partner. Whether or not I find that kind of relationship at 60 is a fairly open question.

Happiness is a warm bum :)

Reply by Ama_Sidero on Mon 6 Jun 2011

chartreuse wrote:
Thank you for the positive replies... it strengthens my resolve and heartens me to see that FLR's happily exist. :)

They do and don't. Ages ago there was a similar thread. I posted there, as I have always been in FLR. But, one needs to be careful how they do it. It is very easy in a FLR to be given the control and decsion making and in reality it turns out be quite a drudge being responsible for everything while the partner hasn't a worry in the world.

I've come to realise that Female Led optimally is having the final say, after discussion. It is not practical to have the final word about something I have no knowledge of. It is asking for an erroneous decsion. It is also not giving all instructions. That means that you end up doing a lot yourself because it is easier than explaining it, AND things lieing undone because no instructions have been given.

It works much better if there is a clear "leader" who has the final say, but both parties have the autonomy, proactivity and motivation to get things done. The proactivity, I find, is the most important. There are enough things in life that proactivity eases the strain of being in control of everything and, actually, just looks like thoughtfulness, which never fails to delght. :-)

@Play_Space - Next party is Friday, June 17 from 930 - 3 am. Info found here: http://www.informedconsent.co.uk/posts/301137/0/... Road Trip to the Sea!!! Next tentatively planned in October.....Just elapsed...More info here:http://www.informedconsent.co.uk/posts/305429/0/...

Reply by JustTony on Mon 6 Jun 2011

Just as love, attachment and respect grow in a relationship, so too does submission.

I'm a big believer in this idea, and that long term 'partnership'-type relationships provide an ideal environment to allow the development of a 'true' FLR dynamic.

My newish gf is refusing to even discuss things like rules, protocol, obedience, or any of that, until she feels we are emotionally close enough that the relationship feels more 'real'.

She doesn't get angry when I forget to open a door for her, because she knows I'm still learning, and she holds back from doing all of the physical play that she needs to do, because she's patient enough to know that as a newbie, it's better for me to take baby steps.

And it makes sense- to me anyway- that when you become genuinely committed to someone and indeed love them, then you will go the extra mile for them in all sorts of ways.

You want to please them all the more, and your bond takes on a more substantial feel- and thus her dominance, and your submission to her will- becomes much more real and more binding to both of you.

I'm sure there are lots of submissives who are a bit scared of FLR, and it's a big step to take in all sorts of ways- giving up your decision-making power can be a terrifying and even a saddening thought at times.

Even when you know it is the right direction for you, it is still a big step and a traumatic one at times.

To use what some will see as a trivial example, it can be a wrench to realise that you can no longer take it for granted that you will be watching football games, or going out with friends whenever you want- but instead you must rely on someone else's permission to do those things. All the more reason why you have to ensure you choose somebody with a heart, as well as a brain.

But if you take that whole 'ownership' process gradually, at a pace that feels natural to both people, I'm sure it's a lot easier for the submissive to handle on all levels, and the end result is much more 'real', more settled and happier for both people.

Reply by Ama_Sidero on Mon 6 Jun 2011

chartreuse wrote:
Amazoniax wrote:
They do and don't. Ages ago there was a similar thread. I posted there, as I have always been in FLR. But, one needs to be careful how they do it. It is very easy in a FLR to be given the control and decsion making and in reality it turns out be quite a drudge being responsible for everything while the partner hasn't a worry in the world.

I've come to realise that Female Led optimally is having the final say, after discussion. It is not practical to have the final word about something I have no knowledge of. It is asking for an erroneous decsion. It is also not giving all instructions. That means that you end up doing a lot yourself because it is easier than explaining it, AND things lieing undone because no instructions have been given.

It works much better if there is a clear "leader" who has the final say, but both parties have the autonomy, proactivity and motivation to get things done. The proactivity, I find, is the most important. There are enough things in life that proactivity eases the strain of being in control of everything and, actually, just looks like thoughtfulness, which never fails to delght. :-)

I understand what you mean and I agree - not being one for micro-management means that I don't want to have to give minute instructions and be forever be checking on things... the beauty of being in an FLR (to me) is that a partner will want to delight me; will want me to have the final say but it doesn't mean that he can sit on his laurels and not use his initiative.

To ensure it (the FLR) will be the best it can be will entail a lot of discussion, trial and error (on both parts) and a lot of understanding/patience... if both are prepared to enter a FLR with that frame of mind, there is more chance of it being successful, I think - for it to stand any chance of survival there has to be an innate compatibility and very similar desires. Am I right?

Yes I think you are right. I think, though, that it is something that just happens naturally, rather than something that is so negotiated. People naturally want to please. People naturally respect and appreciate each other (as Tony posts). Sometimes it just 'flows"

I hope you find it. :-)

@Play_Space - Next party is Friday, June 17 from 930 - 3 am. Info found here: http://www.informedconsent.co.uk/posts/301137/0/... Road Trip to the Sea!!! Next tentatively planned in October.....Just elapsed...More info here:http://www.informedconsent.co.uk/posts/305429/0/...

Reply by MistressRouge on Tue 7 Jun 2011

This is an important factor too for a successful relationship, I have My Me time My fiance his too. It works very well for us, and it is a really good point that your raise.

I hope you find the same :)

redgerbil wrote:
I think this could work for me if we weren't 'in each other's faces' all the time. I need a certain amount of solitude and time on my own to do things that I couldn't do with a partner. Whether or not I find that kind of relationship at 60 is a fairly open question.

My S&M Night http://clubrack.co.uk/ Saturday June the 4th - Rubber & Electrics Night.

My Members Site: http://mistressrougeuk.c4slive.com/

My Videos Clips: http://www.clips4sale.com/store/13392

Reply by femsup on Tue 7 Jun 2011

I would hope that the lad would see that being with and doing things with his loved one would far outweigh any football match or freinds.

But a woman I would hope would be generous hearted enough to understand and support his interests as long as they were subordinate to making the partnership even closer.

Reply by Out_of_Here on Tue 7 Jun 2011

chartreuse wrote:
Elysium wrote:

Why else would you be asking if FLR are 'pi in the sky'?

I ask because... I am curious to know if anyone has been fortunate enough to have/be in one (from the replies here, it seems some are).

I ask because... so many people (men and women) seem to desire one and I ask because... I have encountered men who seem only to want it (an FLR) on a part-time basis.

This is not a moan, this is a post to ask if others have found it to be that way and I wanted some positive feed-back to support my desire for one, to reinforce my feelings that it is possible.

If I had received no positive replies (and thank you to everyone who has given me them) I would have believed myself to be barking up the wrong tree... now I know I'm not, I will happily continue.

I am fully aware that every person is different and all have their own ideas what a FLR is/should be, for them. To make one work, one has to have the best base to launch it from... believing it is possible is a good base for me but I felt I had to ask the question, in case I was being unrealistic.

What I want will be unrealistic for some... but I don't want "some" I want just one person to devote myself to and for them to devote themselves to me (the fact that the ingredients have to all be there is a major pre-requisite for this type of relationship) - a male should be very careful what he wishes for when looking for a FLR because he might get more than he thought he would.

Women can be very demanding, exacting and controlling... I'm not one who will accept less than I deserve, although I am not unrealistic about what it is possible to have.

If this reads negatively, then I have worded it incorrectly, I am positive that I can enjoy the pleasures of a well-matched FLR, if the man I am in one with is a good match for me (maybe I have already met him).

ETA ~ You are still quite young and maybe you understand less about this female mind than you think you do - no offence intended, it's just a passing thought.

Your views are not unrealistic as I was intending to write and reply earlier to say that @Paulss and I have been living together in a FLR for four and a half years and are blissfully happy and fulfilled with our lives. Your description of what FLR might be describes how we live very well.

Please do not give up or feel it is your fault if you have not yet found the right sub for an FLR. I am sure you will and they will be very happy when you find them. They are not common, the kind of man who can live contentedly under feminine rule but they are out there.

Mistress of @paulss

Reply by Elysium on Wed 8 Jun 2011

chartreuse wrote:
Elysium wrote:

Why else would you be asking if FLR are 'pi in the sky'?

I ask because... I am curious to know if anyone has been fortunate enough to have/be in one (from the replies here, it seems some are).

I ask because... so many people (men and women) seem to desire one and I ask because... I have encountered men who seem only to want it (an FLR) on a part-time basis.

This is not a moan, this is a post to ask if others have found it to be that way and I wanted some positive feed-back to support my desire for one, to reinforce my feelings that it is possible.

If I had received no positive replies (and thank you to everyone who has given me them) I would have believed myself to be barking up the wrong tree... now I know I'm not, I will happily continue.

I am fully aware that every person is different and all have their own ideas what a FLR is/should be, for them. To make one work, one has to have the best base to launch it from... believing it is possible is a good base for me but I felt I had to ask the question, in case I was being unrealistic.

What I want will be unrealistic for some... but I don't want "some" I want just one person to devote myself to and for them to devote themselves to me (the fact that the ingredients have to all be there is a major pre-requisite for this type of relationship) - a male should be very careful what he wishes for when looking for a FLR because he might get more than he thought he would.

Women can be very demanding, exacting and controlling... I'm not one who will accept less than I deserve, although I am not unrealistic about what it is possible to have.

If this reads negatively, then I have worded it incorrectly, I am positive that I can enjoy the pleasures of a well-matched FLR, if the man I am in one with is a good match for me (maybe I have already met him).

ETA ~ You are still quite young and maybe you understand less about this female mind than you think you do - no offence intended, it's just a passing thought.

A male sub asked exactly the same question not so long back. He was met with many disparaging, stereotypical and highly critical comments. Based on nothing more than him being a submissive male. Plus, accused of moaning.

http://www.informedconsent.co.uk/posts/302828/1

I just wanted to see what would happen if I simply mentioned moaning and suggesting your attitude was the issue.

You confirmed my theory.

Thanks btw.

A female Domme who complains/expresses doubt just needs reassurance. A male submissive who does the same is obviously doing something wrong.

If the ratios are to be believed. Then, it makes no logical sense. A Domme has far more choice.

This cultural double standard is an example of how messed up the scene is when treating individuals seeking femdom relationships.

I would like it to stop and for male submission to be valued. For male submissive identity to be accorded the same respect and value as everyone under our kinky umbrella.

It's not easy being submissive. There is so much about the scene that makes it harder.

This is just one little part.

BTW, I would never seek to fathom your mind. All I have to go on is conjecture and disconnected observation.

Let's televise and broadcast the raping of kings.

Reply by Elysium on Wed 8 Jun 2011

chartreuse wrote:
Elysium wrote:
A male sub asked exactly the same question not so long back. He was met with many disparaging, stereotypical and highly critical comments. Based on nothing more than him being a submissive male. Plus, accused of moaning.

http://www.informedconsent.co.uk/posts/302828/1

I just wanted to see what would happen if I simply mentioned moaning and suggesting your attitude was the issue.

You confirmed my theory.

Thanks btw.

A female Domme who complains/expresses doubt just needs reassurance. A male submissive who does the same is obviously doing something wrong.

If the ratios are to be believed. Then, it makes no logical sense. A Domme has far more choice.

This cultural double standard is an example of how messed up the scene is when treating individuals seeking femdom relationships.

I would like it to stop and for male submission to be valued. For male submissive identity to be accorded the same respect and value as everyone under our kinky umbrella.

It's not easy being submissive. There is so much about the scene that makes it harder.

This is just one little part.

BTW, I would never seek to fathom your mind. All I have to go on is conjecture and disconnected observation.

I have just looked at the linked post you provided above... nowhere on there did I reply in a derogatory manner (in fact I didn't reply to it at all because... I didn't even see the post on the boards).

So, you chose to use the bad manners of other posters (on another thread) as an excuse to have a go at me, to accuse me of moaning - using me as a guinea-pig for your theory?

You have been the only one (on this thread) to get personal and to perceive this as an opportunity to make some unfounded comments at someone who has done nothing to invite such input, as yours.

Thank you for explaining where you are coming from... please direct your anger at those who have done something to deserve it.

I'm clearly not angry at you.

It's also not personal. It's about the ideas.

I do apologise for using your post to make a wider point.

However, it was a good opportunity to do so.

Again, it's nothing personal.

I really hope you find what you're looking for. Also, please don't discount my very real advice on the effects of reactance on a submissive and the resulting implications for approaching negotiation and conduction of a FLR.

Let's televise and broadcast the raping of kings.

Reply by GoddessBabyCakes on Thu 9 Jun 2011

Elysium wrote:

A female Domme who complains/expresses doubt just needs reassurance. A male submissive who does the same is obviously doing something wrong.

Good to see you behaving like adults, as opposed to the childishness on the linked thread. I do think there's a difference between posting on this group and the main boards. We have fewer incidences of trolling and generally people who aren't interested in FemDom relationships won't read the posts in the this group. Fewer opinions to be posted but I think the overall quality is better because of that.

Anyway, back to the comment above I picked out. I think there's a difference between someone (anyone!) who eloquently expresses doubt and whether that relationship model is feasible, and someone (anyone!) who asks advice about how to find a relationship in three sentences.

I would say that the content of the two posts is really rather different; also the history of the poster and their profile can help to put things into perspective. The male who posted had never posted, and his first post gave no information other than that he wanted to find a FLR. Given the number of posts in that vein on IC, I'm not surprised it's met with some criticism and sarcasm.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act” - George Orwell

"In order to be irreplaceable, one must always be different" - Coco Chanel

Please check out @FemDom_Forum too!

Reply by Humilitas on Mon 27 Jun 2011

chartreuse wrote:
Thank you @Amazoniax and @JustTony (having some input from a male perspective is useful).

Small steps, gradually introduced... makes sense to me, the main thing is to build the relationship. The "furnishings" shouldn't be completely ignored, though... should they? If both have the same taste they will find it easier to agree and enjoy each other, leading to a happier environment.

Goodness, all this building and furnishing sure takes a lot of thought... maybe it's better to just relax and enjoy the development of the complex. ;)

Chartreuse.....I am impressed that you do take heed of the male perspective input.....is it not critical that the male submissive has a very strong view on what 'Femdom' entails and what is expected of him in that relationship. It is not 'blind obedience' but if the Domme has the strength of personality which attracts both her submissives trust and respect then the submission is a very natural and pleasurable step for both. Whilst I have never had the inclination for a 7/24 D/s relationship, I can see that it may put a strain on what can be a very beautiful thing between a Domme and her submissive in a non-7/24 relationship. Your profile does indicate that you have a very in depth appreciation of a D/s relationship......and it does indicate the qualities to engender trust and respect in a submissive. A good thread making interesting reading

Humilitas - The showing of humility and obedience to those who are capable of commanding it

Reply by Stallen on Mon 18 Jul 2011

This Oct, will be 11yrs FLR.

100's of reasons why it works, and after this much time I can't think of one why it wouldn't work for us.

Major life decisions where made by herself a few weeks ago now its full change ahead and a complete dive into the unknown, but there you go thats what happens and we'll both be fully committed to the changes and I have no doubt it'll all workout.

Reply by Ama_Sidero on Mon 18 Jul 2011

It is possible.

However, I think a sub getting "fed up" really shouldn't happen if it is a symbiotic relationship. It might just as well be the Domme getting "fed up" of having the responsibility.

Being in control doesn't mean the Female doesn't care or or doesn't listen. In fact, it would be a silly person who didn't listen to their partner on some sort of principle.

I agree with Elysium in that people grow together and there is a lot of trust involved which develops with the relationship.

@Play_Space - Next party is Friday, July 22 from 930 - 3 am. Info found here: http://www.informedconsent.co.uk/posts/301137/0/... Road Trip to the Sea!!! Next tentatively planned in October.....Just elapsed...More info here:http://www.informedconsent.co.uk/posts/305429/0/...

Reply by stripped_warrior on Mon 18 Jul 2011

From my PoV, an FLR (a FLR?) should work, after all for the last several hundred years MLR's have done so. All that changes is that She wears the trousers as it were, and that She has the final veto on what happens.

Sure there's kinky pish involved but beyond that, the basics really are simple, the rest is extra.

Reality is a perception, normality an opinion.

}-kajiru-{

Supporter of Predicament Hugging

Reply by exmoor1 on Sun 24 Jul 2011

the female led relationship for me is one where the "play" bit around sexual intimacy is not seperate from the sensuality of pleasing the female in all areas of normal day to day life, not being told to give a massage, or do the dishes, but doing them and other things as a matter of course, from running the bath to washing her back to shopping while she waits in the cafe. all of which are routine and pleasurable, what do i get from it, well no sexual gratification needed for me, sensuality is far more satisfying. Putting down my book to go kneel at her feet as she reads hers, gently massaging them until she has had enough, or just getting up and pouring her a drink. There are decisions to be made around everyday life, but while suggestions from me will be made, the final say is not mine. Being submissive does not have to be obviouse, the little things once called manners such as opening a door, pulling out a chair before she sits, fetching the drinks when out, all manner of things go into being a step behind a more dominant and superior female.

happy new year to one and all, my what memories of humiliation and degredation coming back to this site has brought me. Now happy days serving in domestic bliss, hope to slip into my little maids outfit later today

Reply by Stallen on Tue 26 Jul 2011

exmoor1 wrote:
the female led relationship for me is one where the "play" bit around sexual intimacy is not seperate from the sensuality of pleasing the female in all areas of normal day to day life, not being told to give a massage, or do the dishes, but doing them and other things as a matter of course, from running the bath to washing her back to shopping while she waits in the cafe. all of which are routine and pleasurable, what do i get from it, well no sexual gratification needed for me, sensuality is far more satisfying. Putting down my book to go kneel at her feet as she reads hers, gently massaging them until she has had enough, or just getting up and pouring her a drink. There are decisions to be made around everyday life, but while suggestions from me will be made, the final say is not mine. Being submissive does not have to be obviouse, the little things once called manners such as opening a door, pulling out a chair before she sits, fetching the drinks when out, all manner of things go into being a step behind a more dominant and superior female.

it ain't like that in our FLR. :-D

Reply by justme001 on Fri 12 Aug 2011

"No. If he genuinely, truly wants to serve and you both have that connection, it will feel like the most natural thing in the world."

Nothing more to say really.

Reply by x_Lia_x on Wed 24 Aug 2011

Thanks for this really interesting blog. As a relative newbie, I found this question and the replies fascinating reading. I love the idea of FLR's and they obviously work very well for some couples, although it does seem like all the hard work is left to the women. It has given me something to think about though

No point flogging a dead horse!

Reply by tanken on Wed 24 Aug 2011

I still can't figure out whether or not this would work for me. I had a girlfriend in the early 1970s who once said: 'I tried to dominate you but it didn't work'.

I think it depends upon the dynamic and the 'chemistry' and who is good at what in everyday life as well.

Happiness is a warm bum :)

Reply by justme001 on Mon 29 Aug 2011

ETA ~ The sentence enclosed by *'s.

This is it the end of the original post. I'm probably going to show myself up big time but can someone explain its meaning?

Reply by GoddessBabyCakes on Mon 29 Aug 2011

justme001 wrote:
"No. If he genuinely, truly wants to serve and you both have that connection, it will feel like the most natural thing in the world."

Nothing more to say really.

It's pretty true from my side of the fence :-)

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act” - George Orwell

"In order to be irreplaceable, one must always be different" - Coco Chanel

Please check out @FemDom_Forum too!

Reply by Cal451 on Tue 30 Aug 2011

A relationship doesn't have to be kinky to be Female led. I know lots of guys in Vanilla who would not be able to function without their Female partners. One guy I know has his wages paid into his wifes account and she controls his money. Why? not because she is financially domming him but because he isn't responsible enough to handle the money properly. He would spend it all on rubbish (his words) and land them both in debt. Other guys I know rely on their Female partners to make arrangments for most of their lives due to them being frightened of resposibility. Infact, I think all the guys I know in Female Domme/Male Sub relationships have far more autonomy and input than some I know in vanilla relationships.

Reply by Original_Rebel on Tue 30 Aug 2011

Is anyone really that submissive? Would you still be a person in your own right if you did this?

chartreuse wrote:
A Female-led relationship...?

... what does it entail/mean to you

Is it really possible to have that sort of relationship, one where the submissive willingly yields to his Mistress, in all things?

Reply by justme001 on Wed 31 Aug 2011

chartreuse wrote:
ETA - means Edited to Add

The sentence enclosed by *'s - means the text with an * at either end of it is the bit the OP (opening post) was edited to add.

;)

justme001 wrote:
ETA ~ The sentence enclosed by *'s.

This is it the end of the original post. I'm probably going to show myself up big time but can someone explain its meaning?

Thanx (I think!!!!) just going to sit down for a while and play with my rubix cube. ;-)

Reply by justme001 on Wed 31 Aug 2011

Original_Rebel wrote:
Is anyone really that submissive? Would you still be a person in your own right if you did this?

chartreuse wrote:
A Female-led relationship...?

... what does it entail/mean to you

Is it really possible to have that sort of relationship, one where the submissive willingly yields to his Mistress, in all things?

Ive thought about that alot. Would it really be possible to not throw a mardy if denied your usual quota of American Chopper (Quest channel, great prog). I would like to think so, but in the real world......?

[/quote]

Reply by justme001 on Wed 31 Aug 2011

I suppose it is very hard to give a blanket reply to the OP. As in any relationship, what works for one couple may not for the other. As someone who has fanatised about an FLR for quite a while now, there must be something in me somewhere that would draw me to make it a reality. On a day to day basis I pretty much hate the confines of authority and the big brother society. Why then would I choose to enter into something that goes against my basic “instinct”. I suppose it all comes down to the prospective partner. As others have said, an FLR doesn't have to be 100% and all consuming. Infact, maybe discussion and compromise are essential to keep some “dynamic” going. Having said that, perhaps leaving the timing and ultimate outcome of the discussions to the Lady is one step nearer to a mutually rewarding FLR.

(Another thought, perhaps at the outset certain limits for both could be agreed with a view to them being revised at a later date?)

Reply by Amperatrixx on Tue 20 Sep 2011

But what about me the title female led is out dated I am a lesbian so who would lead in my relationship we are both female hmmmm. I think I am being pedantic lol. I will just get my coat and go xxx

Reply by BatteredBruisedWifey on Sat 1 Oct 2011

Hi

My first post :)

I am very fortunate to be in a tender FLR. It works for us because my Lady makes me happy. She makes me happy by allowing me to please Her, knowing as She does it makes me so happy to please Her. She so loves being pleased by me. Feels so comfortable & wonderful.

Reply by BatteredBruisedWifey on Tue 4 Oct 2011

chartreuse wrote:
Welcome to IC. :)

Thank you :)

Reply by GoddessBabyCakes on Wed 5 Oct 2011

Enjoy your stay ;-)

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act” - George Orwell

"In order to be irreplaceable, one must always be different" - Coco Chanel

Please check out @FemDom_Forum too!

Reply by BatteredBruisedWifey on Wed 5 Oct 2011

MissKimberley wrote:
Enjoy your stay ;-)

Thank you :)

Though why does that sound as a treat :-D

Reply by tanken on Tue 11 Oct 2011

I think I'm ready for a female led relationship now but it is still a very difficult matter to find a woman with that very special 'chemistry'.

Happiness is a warm bum :)

Reply by Out_of_Here on Tue 11 Oct 2011

Having posted earlier on this thread, I just wanted to add a few things.

FLR says things to me which put it in an interesting place on the bigger D/s spectrum. It could be a fairly low level 'limited area' dynamic or it could be full time D/s with no limits. It is an inclusive term and says to me somewhat friendlier things than say 'Mistress and slave' or Female Domination", even though they actually might all turn out to be the same when practiced in a relationship.

I like the fact FLR doesn't seem to have yet been taken over by the porn industry and manipulated to their ends to create 'ideals' of what the female in FLR is meant to be like. FemDom has unfortunately become a kind of shorthand for certain things, a lot of which do not often apply to real life dominant women and are certainly not defining aspects of female dominance.

FLR is like a blank sheet, onto which we can write our own desires and ideas and feel it can all fit comfortably under that umbrella term.

I can also see it seems to be a natural companion to those whose relationship to their sub is based on loving partnership, mutual desire and respect.

I don't think anyone in an FLR would call their sub 'it' or dehumanise him as some do in M/s.. There seems an emphasis on the importance of the sub being a valued, loved individual who just happens to want to live and thrive under female control.

A Fine Norfolk Domme. Mistress of @paulss My PD blog at http://mistress-keene.blogspot.com/

Reply by Miss_Dee on Wed 12 Oct 2011

Ms_Valentine wrote:
Having posted earlier on this thread, I just wanted to add a few things.

FLR says things to me which put it in an interesting place on the bigger D/s spectrum. It could be a fairly low level 'limited area' dynamic or it could be full time D/s with no limits. It is an inclusive term and says to me somewhat friendlier things than say 'Mistress and slave' or Female Domination", even though they actually might all turn out to be the same when practiced in a relationship.

I like the fact FLR doesn't seem to have yet been taken over by the porn industry and manipulated to their ends to create 'ideals' of what the female in FLR is meant to be like. FemDom has unfortunately become a kind of shorthand for certain things, a lot of which do not often apply to real life dominant women and are certainly not defining aspects of female dominance.

FLR is like a blank sheet, onto which we can write our own desires and ideas and feel it can all fit comfortably under that umbrella term.

I can also see it seems to be a natural companion to those whose relationship to their sub is based on loving partnership, mutual desire and respect.

I don't think anyone in an FLR would call their sub 'it' or dehumanise him as some do in M/s.. There seems an emphasis on the importance of the sub being a valued, loved individual who just happens to want to live and thrive under female control.

^^^^^^very much agree with this^^^^

I am also loving your picture @Ms_Valentine

xxx

Miss Dee

Creasy's art is death, and he is about to paint his masterpiece

Reply by Out_of_Here on Wed 12 Oct 2011

Thank you, Miss Dee, that is kind of you to say. You have cheered up a miserable Domme with a heavy cold and a most annoyingly lost voice. If only I could find it again. has anyone seen it?

A Fine Norfolk Domme. Mistress of @paulss My PD blog at http://mistress-keene.blogspot.com/

Reply by idonna on Wed 12 Oct 2011

Ms_Valentine wrote:

I don't think anyone in an FLR would call their sub 'it' or dehumanise him as some do in M/s.. There seems an emphasis on the importance of the sub being a valued, loved individual who just happens to want to live and thrive under female control.

I also agree with that sentence - and am asking myself the same question. Where are all those subs who like to be treated like that :)

Reply by moreofme on Thu 13 Oct 2011

idonna wrote:
Ms_Valentine wrote:

I don't think anyone in an FLR would call their sub 'it' or dehumanise him as some do in M/s.. There seems an emphasis on the importance of the sub being a valued, loved individual who just happens to want to live and thrive under female control.

I also agree with that sentence - and am asking myself the same question. Where are all those subs who like to be treated like that :)

My first post.

The OP knows me, so hopefully will appreciate me joining in. In response to idonna, I would say that they (we) are out there. I mean, I'm one. Hello!

In terms of the whole FLR thing itself? Well, it seems to me that most of the clever, intelligent answers have been given. However, I would just add, as one who's tried an FLR, when it does work, it works beautifully. On the other hand, both getting to the stage where it works and keeping it working require patience and real communication.

To paraphrase JennyM, earlier in the thread, I think you have to feel strongly enough about your sub that you'd be prepared to give up the D/s element for him. As I remember saying to the OP in person once, the trouble with D/s is that, rather than binding you in a common interest, it often puts another layer of complication and preference-based selection criteria when embarking on a relationship with someone you fancy.

Well, that didn't hurt too much. I may post on another thread in four or five years' time.

Carpe diem ( ... or any other latin phrase that might make you think I'm deeper than I really am)

Reply by BatteredBruisedWifey on Thu 13 Oct 2011

idonna wrote:
Ms_Valentine wrote:

I don't think anyone in an FLR would call their sub 'it' or dehumanise him as some do in M/s.. There seems an emphasis on the importance of the sub being a valued, loved individual who just happens to want to live and thrive under female control.

I also agree with that sentence - and am asking myself the same question. Where are all those subs who like to be treated like that :)

Oooooh yesssss i get proper cravings to be treated as an object, my Lady is sooooo kind to me She obliges :-D

Reply by Out_of_Here on Fri 14 Oct 2011

chartreuse wrote:
idonna wrote:
Ms_Valentine wrote:

I don't think anyone in an FLR would call their sub 'it' or dehumanise him as some do in M/s.. There seems an emphasis on the importance of the sub being a valued, loved individual who just happens to want to live and thrive under female control.

I also agree with that sentence - and am asking myself the same question. Where are all those subs who like to be treated like that :)

It's possible that may have found one who does! :)

Well, I am a bit surprised( if your sub and you are in an FLR and he lives in a dehumanised way) but only because FLR is about a relationship model based on romantic love, as opposed to other TPE relationships which might not include living together, love, sexual contact and so on.

I can't see how a relationship based on love/romance can be one in which the submissive partner is considered to be only and solely an 'it', a non person, and wants to live in degradation and humiliation. That seems more like stock extreme M/s or some forms of FemDom. FLR sets itself to be something different and would have different dynamics to those other ones.

I can see a man in an FLR might want some 'degrading and humiliating role play', but not to live in that role as part of FLR. It just seems incompatible to me.

A Fine Norfolk Domme. Mistress of @paulss My PD blog at http://mistress-keene.blogspot.com/

Reply by idonna on Fri 14 Oct 2011

Ms_Valentine wrote:
FLR is about a relationship model based on romantic love, as opposed to other TPE relationships which might not include living together, love, sexual contact and so on.

I think that is for me the best definition of FLR so far.

"It" is not the word I would describe anyone sub or not tbh.

Reply by Out_of_Here on Fri 14 Oct 2011

chartreuse wrote:
Ms_Valentine wrote:
Well, I am a bit surprised( if your sub and you are in an FLR and he lives in a dehumanised way) but only because FLR is about a relationship model based on romantic love, as opposed to other TPE relationships which might not include living together, love, sexual contact and so on.

I can't see how a relationship based on love/romance can be one in which the submissive partner is considered to be only and solely an 'it', a non person, and wants to live in degradation and humiliation. That seems more like stock extreme M/s or some forms of FemDom. FLR sets itself to be something different and would have different dynamics to those other ones.

I can see a man in an FLR might want some 'degrading and humiliating role play', but not to live in that role as part of FLR. It just seems incompatible to me.

I think you may have misunderstood my reply (or I the point of the post I responded to)... I meant that I may have found one of the romantic subs.

Oh, I thought idonna was asking where were the subs who wanted to be dehumanised and that you were saying you had found one of them. My mistake.

Glad you have found something good :-)

A Fine Norfolk Domme. Mistress of @paulss My PD blog at http://mistress-keene.blogspot.com/

Reply by paulmcuk on Sun 16 Oct 2011

chartreuse wrote:
Do you think it's likely to wear thin for the submissive, will he get fed-up with always having to concede, is it just "pie-in-the-sky", a fantasy, an ideal that will never become a reality (other than during play)?

I've never been in an FLR but I think the sub is unlikely to have to concede all the time in a relationship that is working. There will be many areas where the Domme is happy to let the sub make decisions either because she recognises he has a particular knowledge or simply because she doesn't care one way or the other.

I usually draw parallels with the traditional (pre-1960s) m/f relationship. The woman was supposed to be subserviant to the man - the promise to "obey" in the marriage vow being taken seriously. But even where the man took his role as head of the household seriously, in most cases he didn't dictate every aspect of life. Many men were happy to leave domestic arrangements to their wives.

Of course, I don't see a modern FLR as a straight reversal of that traditional relationship. But it does show that a D/s relationship can work very well as long as both partners accept their role while respecting the attributes that the other brings. While we may view the women in those old marriages as "downtrodden", the truth is that many were very happy with their lot.

My view of an FLR is one in which my opinion is respected, and often accepted. My partner would have ultimate say but the more we got to know one another the less she would need to overrule me. I would learn her preferences and accept them, she would learn mine and occasionally let me have my way. I would learn which decisions had to be left to her, she would learn which ones she could safely leave to my discretion. Points of disagreement would gradulally become few and far between...which seems a far better recipe for a long and happy relationship than two people constantly butting heads trying to have their own way.

Reply by BatteredBruisedWifey on Mon 17 Oct 2011

Ms_Valentine wrote:
only because FLR is about a relationship model based on romantic love ...

I can't see how a relationship based on love/romance can be one in which the submissive partner is considered to be only and solely an 'it', a non person, and wants to live in degradation and humiliation.

I can see a man in an FLR might want some 'degrading and humiliating role play', but not to live in that role as part of FLR. It just seems incompatible to me.

Yep :)

I become "it" when i get cravings begging my Lady to treat me disdainfully "sh*t under Her shoes" as She says :) I do get excited :-D by the haughty disregard my Lady has for me in those role play moments. Also in a strange way penance, i suppose of all the people ive hurt i didn't behave humanely then, so im getting my just desserts :-p

Reply by femsup on Mon 17 Oct 2011

Ms_Valentine wrote:
Having posted earlier on this thread, I just wanted to add a few things.

FLR says things to me which put it in an interesting place on the bigger D/s spectrum. It could be a fairly low level 'limited area' dynamic or it could be full time D/s with no limits. It is an inclusive term and says to me somewhat friendlier things than say 'Mistress and slave' or Female Domination", even though they actually might all turn out to be the same when practiced in a relationship.

I like the fact FLR doesn't seem to have yet been taken over by the porn industry and manipulated to their ends to create 'ideals' of what the female in FLR is meant to be like. FemDom has unfortunately become a kind of shorthand for certain things, a lot of which do not often apply to real life dominant women and are certainly not defining aspects of female dominance.

FLR is like a blank sheet, onto which we can write our own desires and ideas and feel it can all fit comfortably under that umbrella term.

I can also see it seems to be a natural companion to those whose relationship to their sub is based on loving partnership, mutual desire and respect.

I don't think anyone in an FLR would call their sub 'it' or dehumanise him as some do in M/s.. There seems an emphasis on the importance of the sub being a valued, loved individual who just happens to want to live and thrive under female control.

You have put it so wondefully! I too like the fact that to date the concept of FLR is largely untainted by the male constructs of what dominant women should be.

Women have been far more at the forefront of the idea and thus its more likely to succeed.

Reply by femsup on Mon 17 Oct 2011

paulmcuk wrote:
chartreuse wrote:
Do you think it's likely to wear thin for the submissive, will he get fed-up with always having to concede, is it just "pie-in-the-sky", a fantasy, an ideal that will never become a reality (other than during play)?

I've never been in an FLR but I think the sub is unlikely to have to concede all the time in a relationship that is working. There will be many areas where the Domme is happy to let the sub make decisions either because she recognises he has a particular knowledge or simply because she doesn't care one way or the other.

I usually draw parallels with the traditional (pre-1960s) m/f relationship. The woman was supposed to be subserviant to the man - the promise to "obey" in the marriage vow being taken seriously. But even where the man took his role as head of the household seriously, in most cases he didn't dictate every aspect of life. Many men were happy to leave domestic arrangements to their wives.

Of course, I don't see a modern FLR as a straight reversal of that traditional relationship. But it does show that a D/s relationship can work very well as long as both partners accept their role while respecting the attributes that the other brings. While we may view the women in those old marriages as "downtrodden", the truth is that many were very happy with their lot.

My view of an FLR is one in which my opinion is respected, and often accepted. My partner would have ultimate say but the more we got to know one another the less she would need to overrule me. I would learn her preferences and accept them, she would learn mine and occasionally let me have my way. I would learn which decisions had to be left to her, she would learn which ones she could safely leave to my discretion. Points of disagreement would gradulally become few and far between...which seems a far better recipe for a long and happy relationship than two people constantly butting heads trying to have their own way.

Yes an ever more virtuous circle that is a win win for all.

Reply by Ladys_flower on Mon 17 Oct 2011

Ms_Valentine wrote:
Having posted earlier on this thread, I just wanted to add a few things.

FLR says things to me which put it in an interesting place on the bigger D/s spectrum. It could be a fairly low level 'limited area' dynamic or it could be full time D/s with no limits. It is an inclusive term and says to me somewhat friendlier things than say 'Mistress and slave' or Female Domination", even though they actually might all turn out to be the same when practiced in a relationship.

I like the fact FLR doesn't seem to have yet been taken over by the porn industry and manipulated to their ends to create 'ideals' of what the female in FLR is meant to be like. FemDom has unfortunately become a kind of shorthand for certain things, a lot of which do not often apply to real life dominant women and are certainly not defining aspects of female dominance.

FLR is like a blank sheet, onto which we can write our own desires and ideas and feel it can all fit comfortably under that umbrella term.

I can also see it seems to be a natural companion to those whose relationship to their sub is based on loving partnership, mutual desire and respect.

I don't think anyone in an FLR would call their sub 'it' or dehumanise him as some do in M/s.. There seems an emphasis on the importance of the sub being a valued, loved individual who just happens to want to live and thrive under female control.

My Lady & i have been together for over 2 years now, and Ms Valentines description is perhaps the best at explaining the foundations of our relationship. Mutual love, respect, desire, and wanting to nuture, protect, and support each other are an absolute must, in our experience. Within this framework, are the FemDom, D/s, FLR (Call it what you will) elements that re-inforce the dynamic that we practice. As the sub partner, i am required to behave in certain ways (asking permissions, not sitting on furniture, etc) that re-inforce that dynamic, but i know that my opinion will be sought, that initiative & pro-action are expected (a real toughy, that one)& that i am required to contribute to the relationship as fully as My Lady does.

i hope this is of use from the subs POV

"Equal Rights for Dolphins" is not just a slogan

Reply by BatteredBruisedWifey on Sat 22 Oct 2011

Before i somehow fell into a FLR, i had wondered what happens when the dominant partner is down, needs comforting, would she find it easy to turn to her submissive partner, would her submissive partner find it difficult to know what to do.

I now realise it works for us because for us it is RLF, with the relationship first, equal human beings concerned for one another.